Discussion:
Patterns
(too old to reply)
The Doctor
2024-02-13 01:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Deos anyone how what encryption is being used here?

*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nk.ca Ici ***@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ; unsubscribe from Google Groups to be seen
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Jakob Bohm
2024-02-13 15:44:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Doctor
Deos anyone how what encryption is being used here?
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
Probably a one time pad customized to generating this particular
"ciphertext" for a specific plaintext. Of cause, this can only
be done by knowing the message before the key is chosen, thus
making it equally easy to just share the plaintext over that key
distribution channel .


Enjoy

Jakob
--
Jakob Bohm, CIO, Partner, WiseMo A/S. https://www.wisemo.com
Transformervej 29, 2860 Søborg, Denmark. Direct +45 31 13 16 10
This public discussion message is non-binding and may contain errors.
WiseMo - Remote Service Management for PCs, Phones and Embedded
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-02-13 20:43:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Doctor
Deos anyone how what encryption is being used here?
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
None? lol. just kidding. Humm...

Some combination of plaintext, secret key and cipher algorithm generated
it. Probably, the plaintext was hand crafted? ;^)
Rich
2024-02-14 04:45:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by The Doctor
Deos anyone how what encryption is being used here?
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
None? lol. just kidding. Humm...
Some combination of plaintext, secret key and cipher algorithm
generated it. Probably, the plaintext was hand crafted? ;^)
As Jacob correctly pointed out, if one knows the message, one can then
'hand craft' a one-time-pad to generate exactly this output from that
message. The usual issues with getting the OTP to Bob so Bob can
decrypt still apply.
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-02-14 20:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by The Doctor
Deos anyone how what encryption is being used here?
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
None? lol. just kidding. Humm...
Some combination of plaintext, secret key and cipher algorithm
generated it. Probably, the plaintext was hand crafted? ;^)
As Jacob correctly pointed out, if one knows the message, one can then
'hand craft' a one-time-pad to generate exactly this output from that
message.
Or even the other way around? If one knows the OTP (Bob and/or Alice),
they can create a special plaintext that generates this output for fun.
Post by Rich
The usual issues with getting the OTP to Bob so Bob can
decrypt still apply.
Indeed.
Stefan Claas
2024-02-15 19:02:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Rich
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by The Doctor
Deos anyone how what encryption is being used here?
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
None? lol. just kidding. Humm...
Some combination of plaintext, secret key and cipher algorithm
generated it. Probably, the plaintext was hand crafted? ;^)
As Jacob correctly pointed out, if one knows the message, one can
then 'hand craft' a one-time-pad to generate exactly this output
from that message.
Or even the other way around? If one knows the OTP (Bob and/or
Alice), they can create a special plaintext that generates this
output for fun.
How would you do this? I mean the OP IMHO does not show an encrypted
string, done with an OTP. OTPs nature is that it does not include
patterns and is totally random.

Even if this string is not encrypted and only encoded, how would one
get such pattern from plain text and convert it back to plain text?

It had been best if the OP had posted a reference URL ...

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
924d68b09939ff530a360fb2865c20195c09f0c0278c1e189d9a2ec3d036d252
c1fb0947cde91b30f3a85319c063eb0d72fce5b739a2bd9ea09bc55bb65e4e01
Rich
2024-02-15 19:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Rich
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by The Doctor
Deos anyone how what encryption is being used here?
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
None? lol. just kidding. Humm...
Some combination of plaintext, secret key and cipher algorithm
generated it. Probably, the plaintext was hand crafted? ;^)
As Jacob correctly pointed out, if one knows the message, one can
then 'hand craft' a one-time-pad to generate exactly this output
from that message.
Or even the other way around? If one knows the OTP (Bob and/or
Alice), they can create a special plaintext that generates this
output for fun.
How would you do this?
For a traditional, 1940's substution style OTP, it is trivial:

Message: The

Pad:

T=H
e=r
h=e

Substitute using the pad, get the encrypted message: Her

One can do the same in reverse, if one has an encrypted message, one
can "fashion" a "pad" that will appear to make the message decrypt to
anything you like (so long as "anything" is the same length as the
encrypted message). Note that for the above I picked that pad on
purpose so that "The" would /encrypt/ to "Her".

If one uses XOR to encrypt using their OTP then fashioning a "pad" to
transform X into Y is simply byte wise X (xor) Y. The result is a pad
that will transform X into Y (or Y into X) by XOR.
Post by Stefan Claas
I mean the OP IMHO does not show an encrypted string, done with an
OTP.
That's the magic of OTP's that provide their prefect secrecy, we can't
know if that is an ecrypted string, decrypted string, or just random
line noise. All possible "decryptions" are possible, and finding the
one 'needle' in the haystack of "not the right pad this time" is
troublesome. Less so in today's world where a computer can "spell
check" the message and dismiss much of the hay in a near instant.
Post by Stefan Claas
OTPs nature is that it does not include patterns and is totally
random.
Properly secure OTP's, yes. But we can't know with certianty that OP's
original string was not from a 'custom crafted OTP'.
Post by Stefan Claas
Even if this string is not encrypted and only encoded, how would one
get such pattern from plain text and convert it back to plain text?
By choosing the "encoding" in order to make such happen.
Post by Stefan Claas
It had been best if the OP had posted a reference URL ...
I doubt OP found the string at some URL. I suspect the OP was
trolling.
Stefan Claas
2024-02-15 20:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Or even the other way around? If one knows the OTP (Bob and/or
Alice), they can create a special plaintext that generates this
output for fun.
How would you do this?
Message: The
T=H
e=r
h=e
Substitute using the pad, get the encrypted message: Her
Well, one uses a substitution table, trigraph, etc. and then
a pad to encrypt the message. Otherwise it would be a plain
text encoded message, right?
Post by Rich
Post by Stefan Claas
It had been best if the OP had posted a reference URL ...
I doubt OP found the string at some URL. I suspect the OP was
trolling.
That was my thought too and the reason why I did not reply to him
directly.

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
cec364f80a628ea8fa2d4734e0cf804ad331b8d6f2e65c1f2f7441fc2728186c
2cc5ce7d3e5d69a80c0140c8973536ed840a5613f727eb5924612d392b7ea202
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-02-16 02:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Rich
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Or even the other way around? If one knows the OTP (Bob and/or
Alice), they can create a special plaintext that generates this
output for fun.
How would you do this?
Message: The
T=H
e=r
h=e
Substitute using the pad, get the encrypted message: Her
Well, one uses a substitution table, trigraph, etc. and then
a pad to encrypt the message. Otherwise it would be a plain
text encoded message, right?
Give me a OPT 3 bytes long. Creating a plaintext that results in a
ciphertext of say 123, or ABC is possible...
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Rich
Post by Stefan Claas
It had been best if the OP had posted a reference URL ...
I doubt OP found the string at some URL. I suspect the OP was
trolling.
That was my thought too and the reason why I did not reply to him
directly.
Regards
Stefan
Stefan Claas
2024-02-16 16:57:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Rich
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Or even the other way around? If one knows the OTP (Bob and/or
Alice), they can create a special plaintext that generates this
output for fun.
How would you do this?
Message: The
T=H
e=r
h=e
Substitute using the pad, get the encrypted message: Her
Well, one uses a substitution table, trigraph, etc. and then
a pad to encrypt the message. Otherwise it would be a plain
text encoded message, right?
Give me a OPT 3 bytes long. Creating a plaintext that results in a
ciphertext of say 123, or ABC is possible...
Yes, but then it is not OTP encryption and only plain code, done
with substitution, I would say. The OP's Subject: is Patterns.

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
0722421a0b6680c4ade0fcaac8d76552cf746531dd89eeca1b7db32ecef8bceb
9c4ca60a0298d56bd96340d8a4a1b05bc4c38d6fcf13d8aa2633018b09f0ff0f
Stefan Claas
2024-02-16 17:07:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Rich
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Or even the other way around? If one knows the OTP (Bob and/or
Alice), they can create a special plaintext that generates this
output for fun.
How would you do this?
Message: The
T=H
e=r
h=e
Substitute using the pad, get the encrypted message: Her
Well, one uses a substitution table, trigraph, etc. and then
a pad to encrypt the message. Otherwise it would be a plain
text encoded message, right?
Give me a OPT 3 bytes long. Creating a plaintext that results in a
ciphertext of say 123, or ABC is possible...
Yes, but then it is not OTP encryption and only plain code, done
with substitution, I would say. The OP's Subject: is Patterns.
To be more clear, an OTP encrypted message with digits or letters
can of course include 3-5 letter words or a 3-5 digits sequence, but
in case of OTPs this means nothing and I would not call it pattern,
in an encrypted message.

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
48c677c37bef1ad110bea0c0c42da8846f5b1e628b1b04d6f2400cc4696c5171
361fc85f7b1c3ebd65756278b51194f681428720b3b4360c13b7c3d306fd8d0f
William Unruh
2024-02-17 00:25:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Rich
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Or even the other way around? If one knows the OTP (Bob and/or
Alice), they can create a special plaintext that generates this
output for fun.
How would you do this?
Message: The
T=H
e=r
h=e
Substitute using the pad, get the encrypted message: Her
Well, one uses a substitution table, trigraph, etc. and then
a pad to encrypt the message. Otherwise it would be a plain
text encoded message, right?
Give me a OPT 3 bytes long. Creating a plaintext that results in a
ciphertext of say 123, or ABC is possible...
Yes, but then it is not OTP encryption and only plain code, done
with substitution, I would say. The OP's Subject: is Patterns.
To be more clear, an OTP encrypted message with digits or letters
can of course include 3-5 letter words or a 3-5 digits sequence, but
in case of OTPs this means nothing and I would not call it pattern,
in an encrypted message.
AFAICT, it all boils down to fun with OTP's... ;^)
A One Time Pad means what it says. It can only be used once. It must be
the same size as the message to be encrypted (ie you cannot use pad from
earlier in the message to encode later stuff.) Otherwise it is weak. It
is not a substition cypher (eg your T=H e=r h=e ) to encrypt any other
occrances of T, h or e. That is NOT an OTP. It is a MRP (Many time pad)
which is woefully weak. A OTP is unconditionally secret. It cannot be
broken. An MTP is very weak, or a substitiution cypher is very weak
unless the substition block is really large.
OTPs are not fun. They are boring, because there is no way they can be
broken, unless you capture the key. But of course that is their problem
since you have to get the key to the recipient, without the enemy
capturing the key, and the key is huge, so hard to hide.
Rich
2024-02-17 05:39:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Unruh
A One Time Pad means what it says. It can only be used once. It must be
the same size as the message to be encrypted (ie you cannot use pad from
earlier in the message to encode later stuff.) Otherwise it is weak. It
is not a substition cypher (eg your T=H e=r h=e ) to encrypt any other
occrances of T, h or e. That is NOT an OTP. It is a MRP (Many time pad)
which is woefully weak. A OTP is unconditionally secret. It cannot be
broken. An MTP is very weak, or a substitiution cypher is very weak
unless the substition block is really large.
OTPs are not fun. They are boring, because there is no way they can be
broken, unless you capture the key. But of course that is their problem
since you have to get the key to the recipient, without the enemy
capturing the key, and the key is huge, so hard to hide.
All correct, and also Whoosh!...

The OP (the Doctor, likely trolling as he has not again been seen in
this thread) posted a string of sequential letters and numbers and
asked what "encryption" was used.

Jacob, in message <uqg2om$252r4$***@dont-email.me> correctly pointed out
that /assuming/ it even was an "encrypted" output, that one way to have
created the sequential string as the "cipher text" was to specially
craft an OTP "pad" for a known message to result in the given output.

Stefan, in message <uqln3h$2pbms$***@i2pn2.org> asked how this could be
done. My reply with the T=H substitution was an extremely simplified
explanation of how one could craft a pad to cause a given output to
appear.
William Unruh
2024-02-18 21:04:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
Post by William Unruh
A One Time Pad means what it says. It can only be used once. It must be
the same size as the message to be encrypted (ie you cannot use pad from
earlier in the message to encode later stuff.) Otherwise it is weak. It
is not a substition cypher (eg your T=H e=r h=e ) to encrypt any other
occrances of T, h or e. That is NOT an OTP. It is a MRP (Many time pad)
which is woefully weak. A OTP is unconditionally secret. It cannot be
broken. An MTP is very weak, or a substitiution cypher is very weak
unless the substition block is really large.
OTPs are not fun. They are boring, because there is no way they can be
broken, unless you capture the key. But of course that is their problem
since you have to get the key to the recipient, without the enemy
capturing the key, and the key is huge, so hard to hide.
All correct, and also Whoosh!...
The OP (the Doctor, likely trolling as he has not again been seen in
this thread) posted a string of sequential letters and numbers and
asked what "encryption" was used.
that /assuming/ it even was an "encrypted" output, that one way to have
created the sequential string as the "cipher text" was to specially
craft an OTP "pad" for a known message to result in the given output.
done. My reply with the T=H substitution was an extremely simplified
explanation of how one could craft a pad to cause a given output to
appear.
Take the original encrypted text. Write down ANY text of the same length
as the encrypted text. Now take the bitwise xor of the original with
your test. The result will be a one time pad which could have been used
to encrypt your madeup text. Ie, you have found a one time pad which
would decrypt the original encrypted text to your Any text.
Of course the probability that your ANY text was what was originally
encrypted is vanishingly small. (1/2^N) where N is the number of bits
in the encrypted text. )f course if it were known to be english text
that was encrypted, the probability is higher (about 1/2^(N/5) I think,
but that still produces a very very small number, and is probably far
worse than if you just dream the text that was encrypted)
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-02-20 21:09:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Rich
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by The Doctor
Deos anyone how what encryption is being used here?
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
None? lol. just kidding. Humm...
Some combination of plaintext, secret key and cipher algorithm
generated it. Probably, the plaintext was hand crafted? ;^)
As Jacob correctly pointed out, if one knows the message, one can
then 'hand craft' a one-time-pad to generate exactly this output
from that message.
Or even the other way around? If one knows the OTP (Bob and/or
Alice), they can create a special plaintext that generates this
output for fun.
How would you do this? I mean the OP IMHO does not show an encrypted
string, done with an OTP. OTPs nature is that it does not include
patterns and is totally random.
If Bob and Alice have access to the same OPT, one of them can create a
special plaintext that can give the message in the ciphertext, or
whatever... Think about it... ;^)
Post by Stefan Claas
Even if this string is not encrypted and only encoded, how would one
get such pattern from plain text and convert it back to plain text?
It had been best if the OP had posted a reference URL ...
Regards
Stefan
Richard Harnden
2024-02-20 21:55:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Rich
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by The Doctor
Deos anyone how what encryption is being used here?
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
None? lol. just kidding. Humm...
Some combination of plaintext, secret key and cipher algorithm
generated it.  Probably, the plaintext was hand crafted?  ;^)
As Jacob correctly pointed out, if one knows the message, one can
then 'hand craft' a one-time-pad to generate exactly this output
from that message.
Or even the other way around? If one knows the OTP (Bob and/or
Alice), they can create a special plaintext that generates this
output for fun.
How would you do this? I mean the OP IMHO does not show an encrypted
string, done with an OTP. OTPs nature is that it does not include
patterns and is totally random.
If Bob and Alice have access to the same OPT, one of them can create a
special plaintext that can give the message in the ciphertext, or
whatever... Think about it... ;^)
If the ciphertext is just going to be 123...abc..., then there is no
point in transmitting it.
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-02-20 22:15:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Harnden
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Rich
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by The Doctor
Deos anyone how what encryption is being used here?
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
None? lol. just kidding. Humm...
Some combination of plaintext, secret key and cipher algorithm
generated it.  Probably, the plaintext was hand crafted?  ;^)
As Jacob correctly pointed out, if one knows the message, one can
then 'hand craft' a one-time-pad to generate exactly this output
from that message.
Or even the other way around? If one knows the OTP (Bob and/or
Alice), they can create a special plaintext that generates this
output for fun.
How would you do this? I mean the OP IMHO does not show an encrypted
string, done with an OTP. OTPs nature is that it does not include
patterns and is totally random.
If Bob and Alice have access to the same OPT, one of them can create a
special plaintext that can give the message in the ciphertext, or
whatever... Think about it... ;^)
If the ciphertext is just going to be 123...abc..., then there is no
point in transmitting it.
Thing of using sections of a large OPT to get:

ciphertext: 123456789

plaintext: thefoxrun

Of source, alice is in on the fun. She says 123456789, lol...

Just for different ways of thinking how to use things.
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-02-20 22:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Richard Harnden
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Rich
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by The Doctor
Deos anyone how what encryption is being used here?
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
None? lol. just kidding. Humm...
Some combination of plaintext, secret key and cipher algorithm
generated it.  Probably, the plaintext was hand crafted?  ;^)
As Jacob correctly pointed out, if one knows the message, one can
then 'hand craft' a one-time-pad to generate exactly this output
from that message.
Or even the other way around? If one knows the OTP (Bob and/or
Alice), they can create a special plaintext that generates this
output for fun.
How would you do this? I mean the OP IMHO does not show an encrypted
string, done with an OTP. OTPs nature is that it does not include
patterns and is totally random.
If Bob and Alice have access to the same OPT, one of them can create
a special plaintext that can give the message in the ciphertext, or
whatever... Think about it... ;^)
If the ciphertext is just going to be 123...abc..., then there is no
point in transmitting it.
ciphertext: 123456789
plaintext: thefoxrun
Of source, alice is in on the fun. She says 123456789, lol...
Just for different ways of thinking how to use things.
One can encrypt a message in binary while eating soup. The spoons and
the number of times it uses the spoon can encrypt. ;^)
The Doctor
2024-02-20 22:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Harnden
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Rich
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by The Doctor
Deos anyone how what encryption is being used here?
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
None? lol. just kidding. Humm...
Some combination of plaintext, secret key and cipher algorithm
generated it.  Probably, the plaintext was hand crafted?  ;^)
As Jacob correctly pointed out, if one knows the message, one can
then 'hand craft' a one-time-pad to generate exactly this output
from that message.
Or even the other way around? If one knows the OTP (Bob and/or
Alice), they can create a special plaintext that generates this
output for fun.
How would you do this? I mean the OP IMHO does not show an encrypted
string, done with an OTP. OTPs nature is that it does not include
patterns and is totally random.
If Bob and Alice have access to the same OPT, one of them can create a
special plaintext that can give the message in the ciphertext, or
whatever... Think about it... ;^)
If the ciphertext is just going to be 123...abc..., then there is no
point in transmitting it.
Basically a generic code!
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nk.ca Ici ***@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism ; unsubscribe from Google Groups to be seen
What worth the power of law that won't stop lawlessness? -unknown
William Unruh
2024-02-20 23:47:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Rich
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by The Doctor
Deos anyone how what encryption is being used here?
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
None? lol. just kidding. Humm...
Some combination of plaintext, secret key and cipher algorithm
generated it. Probably, the plaintext was hand crafted? ;^)
As Jacob correctly pointed out, if one knows the message, one can
then 'hand craft' a one-time-pad to generate exactly this output
from that message.
Or even the other way around? If one knows the OTP (Bob and/or
Alice), they can create a special plaintext that generates this
output for fun.
How would you do this? I mean the OP IMHO does not show an encrypted
string, done with an OTP. OTPs nature is that it does not include
patterns and is totally random.
If Bob and Alice have access to the same OPT, one of them can create a
special plaintext that can give the message in the ciphertext, or
whatever... Think about it... ;^)
Yes, Just do the inverse of the OTP (if it is just xor then xor is also
the inverst) and run it over the encrypted text and get what would have
to have beenused to generate that encrypted text. But one of the
absolutely critical things about OTPs is that it should be irremediably
destroyed after it is used to encrypt the message. So only the person
who ha not already used the OTP should have the OTP.
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Stefan Claas
Even if this string is not encrypted and only encoded, how would one
get such pattern from plain text and convert it back to plain text?
OTP xor PlainText=EncryptedText
OTP xor EncryptedText=PlainText.
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Stefan Claas
It had been best if the OP had posted a reference URL ...
Regards
Stefan
Stefan Claas
2024-02-21 18:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
If Bob and Alice have access to the same OPT, one of them can create
a special plaintext that can give the message in the ciphertext, or
whatever... Think about it... ;^)
Can you craft an example, maybe with code (that compiles ...)?

BTW. I would appreciate if you and other sci.crypt regulars
can sign my guestbook, on my Gemini-Capsule.

gemini://tilde.club/~pollux/

The guestbook is under Gästebuch.

I am thinking about to set-up a cryptobook for us in Geminispace,
so that small encrypted messages can be left there ... ;-)

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
d9ebda51717e5bf7c606c460e632d40daa4fa4315574e6aa5b030d60a79654d0
6fa37e28bed2cc9d8ec7ba5d51dd97faa279d0ccc208092802bedc262e88bc0e
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-02-23 00:21:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
If Bob and Alice have access to the same OPT, one of them can create
a special plaintext that can give the message in the ciphertext, or
whatever... Think about it... ;^)
Can you craft an example, maybe with code (that compiles ...)?
BTW. I would appreciate if you and other sci.crypt regulars
can sign my guestbook, on my Gemini-Capsule.
gemini://tilde.club/~pollux/
The guestbook is under Gästebuch.
I am thinking about to set-up a cryptobook for us in Geminispace,
so that small encrypted messages can be left there ... ;-)
http://fractallife247.com/test/hmac_cipher/ver_0_0_0_1?ct_hmac_cipher=9c113c0799ac3d9b52edbf3429aa673022d46643c5689d93f7cc16688e99961c249bb349a7c6a1c9603ddc793f613cb08a32d3c8284f6dd1a0e9fe3d2cbaf4b32d9717a7be19a1b4934a1e5c5b653ce9213e2acf0cd24a9af41789f9c0bba9fbe2f835a31fe35d90b95514f4d3ad1261e8fc3de2268fec68037bce2dc315ed0668cfd03c78335c171123bc164cca83816da4
Stefan Claas
2024-02-23 14:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
If Bob and Alice have access to the same OPT, one of them can
create a special plaintext that can give the message in the
ciphertext, or whatever... Think about it... ;^)
Can you craft an example, maybe with code (that compiles ...)?
BTW. I would appreciate if you and other sci.crypt regulars
can sign my guestbook, on my Gemini-Capsule.
gemini://tilde.club/~pollux/
The guestbook is under Gästebuch.
I am thinking about to set-up a cryptobook for us in Geminispace,
so that small encrypted messages can be left there ... ;-)
http://fractallife247.com/test/hmac_cipher/ver_0_0_0_1?ct_hmac_cipher=9c113c0799ac3d9b52edbf3429aa673022d46643c5689d93f7cc16688e99961c249bb349a7c6a1c9603ddc793f613cb08a32d3c8284f6dd1a0e9fe3d2cbaf4b32d9717a7be19a1b4934a1e5c5b653ce9213e2acf0cd24a9af41789f9c0bba9fbe2f835a31fe35d90b95514f4d3ad1261e8fc3de2268fec68037bce2dc315ed0668cfd03c78335c171123bc164cca83816da4
Gemini is an Internet Protocol, starting with gemini:// and a mixture
of gopher and classic html.

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
a3ea8d7848721a39804504886a973579eba929486734109e6a345b7d187c405b
4e2d0b5662ed90305670277288fce36151675d3789e48c9e334141e2613ab103
Stefan Claas
2024-02-23 18:59:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Gemini is an Internet Protocol, starting with gemini:// and a mixture
of gopher and classic html.
https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
0d1bafdd4013b840a05c4a6b7218a01ce97f7e6faa213f917ae861a12af38d8c
1f1d33e84cc5547aa35c164ac810872324c8ebe738d8df9f00d301a332ae0e07
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-02-23 20:23:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Stefan Claas
Gemini is an Internet Protocol, starting with gemini:// and a mixture
of gopher and classic html.
https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini
http://fractallife247.com/test/hmac_cipher/ver_0_0_0_1?ct_hmac_cipher=19d672f834593b161ffb1338f77bd51aa5328ab1854b531f33d415ac79ddb154a85beacb0a155cb64b47e551cadf2ad22ad689920bcdc670d1283d337413b691cd1294db0a7ae44bf6e5a9aa3adc138d4a7e2807c48c6612b1674b3caba2257776bfad003601cc973d6d95e2bab113cd7f70be4e8309c8a34a8c2aab53d511576093be2f566d67552c85812070ded60528b863f414a1e15a768302fe0bfabd28ed46d6593f32f33a0c1c4168dea84e722251a6f231979e93c1ba7c30

A little busy right now.
Stefan Claas
2024-02-24 19:25:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Stefan Claas
Gemini is an Internet Protocol, starting with gemini:// and a
mixture of gopher and classic html.
https://github.com/kr1sp1n/awesome-gemini
http://fractallife247.com/test/hmac_cipher/ver_0_0_0_1?ct_hmac_cipher=19d672f834593b161ffb1338f77bd51aa5328ab1854b531f33d415ac79ddb154a85beacb0a155cb64b47e551cadf2ad22ad689920bcdc670d1283d337413b691cd1294db0a7ae44bf6e5a9aa3adc138d4a7e2807c48c6612b1674b3caba2257776bfad003601cc973d6d95e2bab113cd7f70be4e8309c8a34a8c2aab53d511576093be2f566d67552c85812070ded60528b863f414a1e15a768302fe0bfabd28ed46d6593f32f33a0c1c4168dea84e722251a6f231979e93c1ba7c30
A little busy right now.
No Problem! Don't forget to sign my guestbook (Gästebuch),
when exploring Geminispace. ;-)

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
2f610593c193e717c188b9cc56c8d99a724227c8f67107f41c1714bb54e9e7fc
60c9bb65e4c1ade36179980d8a4d560ea18e358af033d56f54d0fbcedb658f06
Rich
2024-02-23 05:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
If Bob and Alice have access to the same OPT, one of them can create
a special plaintext that can give the message in the ciphertext, or
whatever... Think about it... ;^)
Can you craft an example, maybe with code (that compiles ...)?
This is not go, but you should be able to follow along well enough.
Note that ^ is Tcl's expr's byte wise XOR operator.:

#!/usr/bin/tclsh

# "OTP" - obtained by running this, then converted to 0x notation by hand:
# dd if=/dev/urandom bs=1 count=2 | xxd
# f1c3

set otp 0xf1c3

# show otp:
puts [format "OTP: %04x" $otp]

# message that Bob should see in the encrypted text
# "feed"

set bob 0xfeed

# create Alice's message, which when 'encrypted' will result in Bob seeing
# "feed" in the encrypted text

set alice [expr {$otp ^ $bob}]

# output Alice's message as a hex string:
puts [format "Alice 'special' message: %04x" $alice]

# encrypt Alice's special message using the OTP:

set ciphertext [expr {$alice ^ $otp}]

# output ciphertext as hex string
puts [format "Ciphertext: %04x" $ciphertext]

Running this results in:

OTP: f1c3
Alice 'special' message: 0f2e
Ciphertext: feed
Stefan Claas
2024-02-23 18:43:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
If Bob and Alice have access to the same OPT, one of them can
create a special plaintext that can give the message in the
ciphertext, or whatever... Think about it... ;^)
Can you craft an example, maybe with code (that compiles ...)?
This is not go, but you should be able to follow along well enough.
#!/usr/bin/tclsh
# "OTP" - obtained by running this, then converted to 0x notation
by hand: # dd if=/dev/urandom bs=1 count=2 | xxd
# f1c3
set otp 0xf1c3
puts [format "OTP: %04x" $otp]
# message that Bob should see in the encrypted text
# "feed"
set bob 0xfeed
# create Alice's message, which when 'encrypted' will result in
Bob seeing # "feed" in the encrypted text
set alice [expr {$otp ^ $bob}]
puts [format "Alice 'special' message: %04x" $alice]
set ciphertext [expr {$alice ^ $otp}]
# output ciphertext as hex string
puts [format "Ciphertext: %04x" $ciphertext]
Thanks for the code example.
Post by Rich
OTP: f1c3
Alice 'special' message: 0f2e
Ciphertext: feed
He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself, but the
ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be cool if there
would be a real world usage scenario for this.

Maybe a verifying scheme, like Alice submits a long hex key to Bob,
in that form, so that he knows the message comes from Alice if it
says 'the quick brown fox jumps ...'

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
0c8a7d5aead639537cab202da5fab93756cc33bd29705ca6edc240c9172d1a0e
e8dfca6350ec5e2963d906042c7667824673753acba4b7495a909b54bc1b6809
Rich
2024-02-23 20:00:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Thanks for the code example.
Post by Rich
OTP: f1c3
Alice 'special' message: 0f2e
Ciphertext: feed
He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself,
Yes, doing anything like this to "craft" any one of the three pieces
means one of the other pieces is going to look like gibberish.
Post by Stefan Claas
but the ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be cool
if there would be a real world usage scenario for this.
Say you receive a purported encrypted message that reads thusly
(assuming ASCII bytes):

*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456

And you would like to "decrypt" it to read:

The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy

Why you might want to do this I can't say, perhaps to fool someone else
who isn't very cryptographicly aware?

So you just create an OTP pad as the bytewise XOR of each byte of the
purported ciphertext with each byte of the desired decrypted text.
I.e., you do:

otp[i] = cipher[i] ^ desired_message[i] for i from 0 ... length(cipher)

Then, you go to your not so knowledgable friend, indicating that you
just received this message, and when you decrypt with "the pad" (not
mentioning you fashioned "the pad" yourself) the message about the fox
pops out.
Post by Stefan Claas
Maybe a verifying scheme, like Alice submits a long hex key to Bob,
in that form, so that he knows the message comes from Alice if it
says 'the quick brown fox jumps ...'
Not really a very safe way to 'verify' in that once someone
learns/deduces the method, they can repeat with ease (i.e., the
algorithm here has to be kept secret). At least a HMAC, provided Alice
and Bob do in fact keep their shared key secret, is much harder to
fake, even when Eve knows all about the algorithm.
Stefan Claas
2024-02-23 21:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
Post by Stefan Claas
Thanks for the code example.
Post by Rich
OTP: f1c3
Alice 'special' message: 0f2e
Ciphertext: feed
He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself,
Yes, doing anything like this to "craft" any one of the three pieces
means one of the other pieces is going to look like gibberish.
Post by Stefan Claas
but the ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be cool
if there would be a real world usage scenario for this.
Say you receive a purported encrypted message that reads thusly
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
Why you might want to do this I can't say, perhaps to fool someone
else who isn't very cryptographicly aware?
Yes, so that 3rd parties do not see that this is an encrypted message,
kind of steganography.
Post by Rich
So you just create an OTP pad as the bytewise XOR of each byte of the
purported ciphertext with each byte of the desired decrypted text.
otp[i] = cipher[i] ^ desired_message[i] for i from 0 ...
length(cipher)
Then, you go to your not so knowledgable friend, indicating that you
just received this message, and when you decrypt with "the pad" (not
mentioning you fashioned "the pad" yourself) the message about the
fox pops out.
Post by Stefan Claas
Maybe a verifying scheme, like Alice submits a long hex key to Bob,
in that form, so that he knows the message comes from Alice if it
says 'the quick brown fox jumps ...'
Not really a very safe way to 'verify' in that once someone
learns/deduces the method, they can repeat with ease (i.e., the
algorithm here has to be kept secret). At least a HMAC, provided
Alice and Bob do in fact keep their shared key secret, is much harder
to fake, even when Eve knows all about the algorithm.
Yes, understand, but if such a message would be posted anonymously,
probably only the receiver(s) know whats all about it.

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
6a0eaa08046bba8dc871aa0b8efdc88737ae9e8687d310cb79e5f0329ae52b40
acd37e2d21cbfb7ca41095488a261f0c68031a0dea86e2c698a3f70c51581701
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-02-24 20:52:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Rich
Post by Stefan Claas
Thanks for the code example.
Post by Rich
OTP: f1c3
Alice 'special' message: 0f2e
Ciphertext: feed
He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself,
Yes, doing anything like this to "craft" any one of the three pieces
means one of the other pieces is going to look like gibberish.
Post by Stefan Claas
but the ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be cool
if there would be a real world usage scenario for this.
Say you receive a purported encrypted message that reads thusly
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
Why you might want to do this I can't say, perhaps to fool someone
else who isn't very cryptographicly aware?
Yes, so that 3rd parties do not see that this is an encrypted message,
kind of steganography.
Post by Rich
So you just create an OTP pad as the bytewise XOR of each byte of the
purported ciphertext with each byte of the desired decrypted text.
otp[i] = cipher[i] ^ desired_message[i] for i from 0 ...
length(cipher)
Then, you go to your not so knowledgable friend, indicating that you
just received this message, and when you decrypt with "the pad" (not
mentioning you fashioned "the pad" yourself) the message about the
fox pops out.
Post by Stefan Claas
Maybe a verifying scheme, like Alice submits a long hex key to Bob,
in that form, so that he knows the message comes from Alice if it
says 'the quick brown fox jumps ...'
Not really a very safe way to 'verify' in that once someone
learns/deduces the method, they can repeat with ease (i.e., the
algorithm here has to be kept secret). At least a HMAC, provided
Alice and Bob do in fact keep their shared key secret, is much harder
to fake, even when Eve knows all about the algorithm.
Yes, understand, but if such a message would be posted anonymously,
probably only the receiver(s) know whats all about it.
Bob: "The dog was walking itself when the sun was down yesterday." in a
public forum.

Alice reads that and just "knows" to meet Bob in a _specific_ park where
there are dogs off their leashes when the sun is up in 42 days from now...

Something like that? Never mind that Alice is under surveillance...

;^)
Stefan Claas
2024-02-25 16:44:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Rich
Post by Stefan Claas
Thanks for the code example.
Post by Rich
OTP: f1c3
Alice 'special' message: 0f2e
Ciphertext: feed
He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself,
Yes, doing anything like this to "craft" any one of the three
pieces means one of the other pieces is going to look like
gibberish.
Post by Stefan Claas
but the ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be
cool if there would be a real world usage scenario for this.
Say you receive a purported encrypted message that reads thusly
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
Why you might want to do this I can't say, perhaps to fool someone
else who isn't very cryptographicly aware?
Yes, so that 3rd parties do not see that this is an encrypted
message, kind of steganography.
Post by Rich
So you just create an OTP pad as the bytewise XOR of each byte of
the purported ciphertext with each byte of the desired decrypted
otp[i] = cipher[i] ^ desired_message[i] for i from 0 ...
length(cipher)
Then, you go to your not so knowledgable friend, indicating that
you just received this message, and when you decrypt with "the
pad" (not mentioning you fashioned "the pad" yourself) the message
about the fox pops out.
Post by Stefan Claas
Maybe a verifying scheme, like Alice submits a long hex key to
Bob, in that form, so that he knows the message comes from Alice
if it says 'the quick brown fox jumps ...'
Not really a very safe way to 'verify' in that once someone
learns/deduces the method, they can repeat with ease (i.e., the
algorithm here has to be kept secret). At least a HMAC, provided
Alice and Bob do in fact keep their shared key secret, is much
harder to fake, even when Eve knows all about the algorithm.
Yes, understand, but if such a message would be posted anonymously,
probably only the receiver(s) know whats all about it.
Bob: "The dog was walking itself when the sun was down yesterday." in
a public forum.
Alice reads that and just "knows" to meet Bob in a _specific_ park
where there are dogs off their leashes when the sun is up in 42 days
from now...
Something like that? Never mind that Alice is under surveillance...
Yes, that would be nice, if a software implementation for that exists.

One the other side, you can hide OTP messages in text, like this:

Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once done
create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The word count
of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP message.

Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words in
each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can decrypt,
with the exchanged pads, the story.

You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many words
per sentence must be in the story. I did this once successfully. :-)

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
3333210c0ee5a760d6f03d01d5717f1d273f6e479f6db89a69b12b9b8d8a6d7b
3c082fb637cef297ee3b2bcb664f24ce4dded79dc2f9c5419a31ce41c297130d
Richard Harnden
2024-02-25 17:07:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Chris M. Thomasson
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Rich
Post by Stefan Claas
Thanks for the code example.
Post by Rich
OTP: f1c3
Alice 'special' message: 0f2e
Ciphertext: feed
He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself,
Yes, doing anything like this to "craft" any one of the three
pieces means one of the other pieces is going to look like
gibberish.
Post by Stefan Claas
but the ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be
cool if there would be a real world usage scenario for this.
Say you receive a purported encrypted message that reads thusly
*1234567890ABCDEF01234567890ABCDEF0123456
The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy
Why you might want to do this I can't say, perhaps to fool someone
else who isn't very cryptographicly aware?
Yes, so that 3rd parties do not see that this is an encrypted
message, kind of steganography.
Post by Rich
So you just create an OTP pad as the bytewise XOR of each byte of
the purported ciphertext with each byte of the desired decrypted
otp[i] = cipher[i] ^ desired_message[i] for i from 0 ...
length(cipher)
Then, you go to your not so knowledgable friend, indicating that
you just received this message, and when you decrypt with "the
pad" (not mentioning you fashioned "the pad" yourself) the message
about the fox pops out.
Post by Stefan Claas
Maybe a verifying scheme, like Alice submits a long hex key to
Bob, in that form, so that he knows the message comes from Alice
if it says 'the quick brown fox jumps ...'
Not really a very safe way to 'verify' in that once someone
learns/deduces the method, they can repeat with ease (i.e., the
algorithm here has to be kept secret). At least a HMAC, provided
Alice and Bob do in fact keep their shared key secret, is much
harder to fake, even when Eve knows all about the algorithm.
Yes, understand, but if such a message would be posted anonymously,
probably only the receiver(s) know whats all about it.
Bob: "The dog was walking itself when the sun was down yesterday." in
a public forum.
Alice reads that and just "knows" to meet Bob in a _specific_ park
where there are dogs off their leashes when the sun is up in 42 days
from now...
Something like that? Never mind that Alice is under surveillance...
Yes, that would be nice, if a software implementation for that exists.
Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once done
create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The word count
of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP message.
Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words in
each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can decrypt,
with the exchanged pads, the story.
You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many words
per sentence must be in the story. I did this once successfully. :-)
That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.
Stefan Claas
2024-02-25 17:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Harnden
Post by Stefan Claas
Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once done
create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The word count
of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP message.
Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words in
each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can
decrypt, with the exchanged pads, the story.
You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many
words per sentence must be in the story. I did this once
successfully. :-)
That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.
Excuse me, you create random pads as usual and the OTP messages as
usual, which is random and from the ciphertext digits you create with
the help of AI your story.

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
1c4087b8b9c1a9574db57d25a7af79286ee494146cce2de510a325bc1fd4ce17
8d8d8d68442dc1ca5e6bb4c2861981293318092685fd6ff39b9a47214e22410d
Stefan Claas
2024-02-25 17:59:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Richard Harnden
Post by Stefan Claas
Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once
done create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The
word count of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP message.
Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words
in each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can
decrypt, with the exchanged pads, the story.
You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many
words per sentence must be in the story. I did this once
successfully. :-)
That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.
Excuse me, you create random pads as usual and the OTP messages as
usual, which is random and from the ciphertext digits you create with
the help of AI your story.
<https://rijmenants.blogspot.com/2014/12/wps-secret-numbers-in-letters.html>

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
dc19ac1817f25ebe02c54514b64d911a701c338e4b3bd618e47d37756ca73a31
3c6c761eb5b79ed2b00b11af5ab46ed4773cba010c572c069d5ff838d2578d0c
Richard Harnden
2024-02-25 18:12:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Richard Harnden
Post by Stefan Claas
Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once
done create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The
word count of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP message.
Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words
in each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can
decrypt, with the exchanged pads, the story.
You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many
words per sentence must be in the story. I did this once
successfully. :-)
That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.
Excuse me, you create random pads as usual and the OTP messages as
usual, which is random and from the ciphertext digits you create with
the help of AI your story.
<https://rijmenants.blogspot.com/2014/12/wps-secret-numbers-in-letters.html>
I'm not sure what you're trying to do, then.

Combining a OTP with steganography is just going to make the pad much
longer. And the reason OTPs aren't used is that they are difficult to
securely exchange, mostly because they are too long.

Aren't you making the problem worse?
Stefan Claas
2024-02-25 18:23:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Harnden
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Richard Harnden
Post by Stefan Claas
Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once
done create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The
word count of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP
message.
Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words
in each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can
decrypt, with the exchanged pads, the story.
You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many
words per sentence must be in the story. I did this once
successfully. :-)
That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.
Excuse me, you create random pads as usual and the OTP messages as
usual, which is random and from the ciphertext digits you create
with the help of AI your story.
<https://rijmenants.blogspot.com/2014/12/wps-secret-numbers-in-letters.html>
I'm not sure what you're trying to do, then.
Combining a OTP with steganography is just going to make the pad much
longer. And the reason OTPs aren't used is that they are difficult
to securely exchange, mostly because they are too long.
Aren't you making the problem worse?
Ok, I must admit that the OP's thread was about 'Patterns', but I
replied to Chris, showing another way.

I somehow doubt that we can create proper (i.e. long) cipher text
consisting of a pattern, shown by the OP, in form of software and
that it can be reused with other plain code messages. I can be wrong
of course and would like to see such a solution.

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
31412e4b9c6ea60f0a1e7d437766b3bfe4e5a89f3ccbcfb558dcdb212bf328cd
a1d4bc51bdb8914c9c769b1f3fc8049158852e6515ed1c8fd7398672e1ea290e
Rich
2024-02-25 19:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Richard Harnden
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Richard Harnden
Post by Stefan Claas
Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once
done create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The
word count of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP message.
Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words
in each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can
decrypt, with the exchanged pads, the story.
You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many
words per sentence must be in the story. I did this once
successfully. :-)
That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.
Excuse me, you create random pads as usual and the OTP messages as
usual, which is random and from the ciphertext digits you create
with the help of AI your story.
<https://rijmenants.blogspot.com/2014/12/wps-secret-numbers-in-letters.html>
I'm not sure what you're trying to do, then.
Combining a OTP with steganography is just going to make the pad much
longer. And the reason OTPs aren't used is that they are difficult
to securely exchange, mostly because they are too long.
Aren't you making the problem worse?
Ok, I must admit that the OP's thread was about 'Patterns', but I
Of which I still highly suspect that the doctor was simply trolling.
Post by Stefan Claas
replied to Chris, showing another way.
I somehow doubt that we can create proper (i.e. long) cipher text
consisting of a pattern, shown by the OP, in form of software and
that it can be reused with other plain code messages. I can be wrong
of course and would like to see such a solution.
Presuming "the doctor" was not actually trolling (99% probability it
was a troll) then the doctors question was "what algorithm was used to
encrypt". Of course the simplest answer is: "unknown, insufficient
information provided to answer that question".

But, presuming one, for some reason, did want a message to 'ecrypt' to
the doctor's original pattern, then one has three choices to obtain
such:

1) brute force try keys and/or inputs to a selected algorithm until
finding a key/input which results in that specific output. This choice
is likely to take a nearly infinite amount of time.

2) analyze the mathematics of a selected algorithm sufficient to be
able to select a given key and input which would result in the doctor's
output. This would also possibly take significant time, but if one
succeeded here, one would also likely have a paper worthy of
publication and also likely have found a significant break of the
selected algorithm.

3) use the OTP algorithm, and fashion one of either a special OTP that
converts a given message of exactly the output length into that output
or fashion a special message that for a given OTP creates that output.

This is the route that is the quickest, because fashioning either the
"special OTP" or the "special message" is simply bitwise xor of the
doctors output with a selected message (to create a special OTP) or
with a given OTP (to create a special message).

4) create a custom "algorithm" that "encrypts" the message to that
output. This option is little different from #3 beyond it uses "custom
algorithm X" instead of the OTP algorithm.



Therefore, given the lack of information in the doctors initial post, a
reasonable "possible encryption algorithm" to 'create' that output
would be an OTP with specially crafted message or pad.
Stefan Claas
2024-02-25 19:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
[...]
Therefore, given the lack of information in the doctors initial post,
a reasonable "possible encryption algorithm" to 'create' that output
would be an OTP with specially crafted message or pad.
Yes, since the 'Doctor gave little info, I leave it as it is and
concentrate on other things, but because the Subject: is Patterns,
I have one for the Doctor, he can try to decode. :-)

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🔴🔵🔵🔵🔴🔲🔴🔵🔵🔴🔵🔲🔴🔴🔴🔵🔵🔲

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
50fd9c70676ccf73bbec2d451c4b86c4478d18d5f091b6e4b7c348326184b35d
c6b3b30ee77317082481081eda6b4bc62581bc02f465268c6e059fcba05dce09
Stefan Claas
2024-02-26 10:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Rich
[...]
Therefore, given the lack of information in the doctors initial
post, a reasonable "possible encryption algorithm" to 'create' that
output would be an OTP with specially crafted message or pad.
Yes, since the 'Doctor gave little info, I leave it as it is and
concentrate on other things, but because the Subject: is Patterns,
I have one for the Doctor, he can try to decode. :-)
🔵🔴🔵🔵🔵🔲🔴🔵🔵🔵🔴🔲🔴🔵🔴🔴🔴🔲🔴🔵🔴🔴🔵🔲🔵🔵🔴🔴🔵🔲🔴🔴🔴🔵🔴
Updated the encoder, so that the white square is a white circle. :-)

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🔵🔵🔴🔵🔴⚪🔵🔵🔴🔵🔵⚪

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
358b6316425f212f655fc6e0b4a26ed4a3d91c656eb394821a80d27bcbc2d618
0a3b2dda1d1e2104f128b494a49819f9525d171c82e2d7dae77fd92053c22a06
Chris M. Thomasson
2024-02-25 19:43:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Richard Harnden
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Richard Harnden
Post by Stefan Claas
Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once
done create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The
word count of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP
message.
Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words
in each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can
decrypt, with the exchanged pads, the story.
You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many
words per sentence must be in the story. I did this once
successfully. :-)
That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.
Excuse me, you create random pads as usual and the OTP messages as
usual, which is random and from the ciphertext digits you create
with the help of AI your story.
<https://rijmenants.blogspot.com/2014/12/wps-secret-numbers-in-letters.html>
I'm not sure what you're trying to do, then.
Combining a OTP with steganography is just going to make the pad much
longer. And the reason OTPs aren't used is that they are difficult
to securely exchange, mostly because they are too long.
Aren't you making the problem worse?
Ok, I must admit that the OP's thread was about 'Patterns', but I
replied to Chris, showing another way.
If Bob Writes, Had a good time with my cousins today. Alice can
"decrypt" that to mean, high noon, we meet on that rock we used to go to
as teenagers. This requires a preexisting deep connection between Alice
and Bob.
Post by Stefan Claas
I somehow doubt that we can create proper (i.e. long) cipher text
consisting of a pattern, shown by the OP, in form of software and
that it can be reused with other plain code messages. I can be wrong
of course and would like to see such a solution.
Regards
Stefan
Rich
2024-02-25 18:50:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Claas
Post by Richard Harnden
Post by Stefan Claas
Create your OPT message, consisting of digits, like usual. Once done
create a harmless story, with a couple of sentences. The word count
of each sentence represents a digit in the OTP message.
Once Bob receives the story from Alice he simple counts the words in
each sentence and writes down the digits, so that he later can
decrypt, with the exchanged pads, the story.
You can let AI, like Bing, write the stories and tell it how many
words per sentence must be in the story. I did this once
successfully. :-)
That isn't random, so isn't a OTP at all.
Excuse me, you create random pads as usual and the OTP messages as
usual, which is random and from the ciphertext digits you create with
the help of AI your story.
Your plan is to hide the encrypted message using steganography.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography
Doc O'Leary ,
2024-02-24 16:44:46 UTC
Permalink
For your reference, records indicate that
Post by Stefan Claas
He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself, but the
ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be cool if there
would be a real world usage scenario for this.
There are probably plenty. One obvious use is simply transforming one OTP
to another OTP, for whatever reason it might make sense to “refresh” or
“resync" the parties holding the OTP.

As an example, you can create a kind of dead man’s switch if you not only
exchange an OTP with someone, but also agree to XOR it with some commonly
available innocuous “message”, like a news story/video/podcast, or a nightly
build of some open source software, or pretty much any shared-but-non-secret
info. Access to the OTP alone does not then compromise all the secrets.

Another use might be to just flat out *lie* about the data format your
encrypted message is:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_number_(programming)#In_files>

I mean, yeah, you can certainly try hide the message in another *valid*
file format, but you can spice things up for the attacker by forcing them
to consider if the JPEG they have intercepted is corrupted, or was ever
even a JPEG at all! :-)
--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly
Stefan Claas
2024-02-24 19:06:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doc O'Leary ,
For your reference, records indicate that
Post by Stefan Claas
He he, so Alice crafts a message she can't read herself, but the
ciphertext is readable for third parties. It would be cool if there
would be a real world usage scenario for this.
There are probably plenty. One obvious use is simply transforming
one OTP to another OTP, for whatever reason it might make sense to
“refresh” or “resync" the parties holding the OTP.
As an example, you can create a kind of dead man’s switch if you not
only exchange an OTP with someone, but also agree to XOR it with some
commonly available innocuous “message”, like a news
story/video/podcast, or a nightly build of some open source software,
or pretty much any shared-but-non-secret info. Access to the OTP
alone does not then compromise all the secrets.
Another use might be to just flat out *lie* about the data format
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_number_(programming)#In_files>
I mean, yeah, you can certainly try hide the message in another
*valid* file format, but you can spice things up for the attacker by
forcing them to consider if the JPEG they have intercepted is
corrupted, or was ever even a JPEG at all! :-)
Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated! :-)

Regards
Stefan
--
----Ed25519 Signature----
5d8b1bcd6084543a05426e256fbaa12e44e570cd152fd6c8f61c26bb06519ed9
ea0107239bf7465654726af7f3158651d3bfeb1056d0ca709e48af8a4d279d0d
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